A little bit of this and a little bit of that
We often get questions about why we do this and that, especially questions about PAT and the liver/liver combinations we have done. And sometimes we get questions about genetics in general, and why sometimes in one litter are so different puppies, both mentally and exterior. So here are some answers.
And some things that we think is ok to inform about.
This text is in Norwegian at the moment. It will be translated in a short while.
Fra tid til annen får jeg spørsmål fra folk hvorfor jeg tar test av valpene mine når
de er 7 uker gamle. De mener at jeg som oppdretter burde kjenne valpene og
hvordan de er. Og jeg vet mye om dem og kan forutsi en hel del.
Ja, som oppdretter er det en av mine jobber. Og jeg bruker mye tid i valpekassa,
og også mye tid på valpene individuelt.
MEN!
Valpene i valpekassa er sammen med søsken og foreldre. De er sammen med
oss som de kjenner. De er i trygge og vante omgivelser. Men den dagen kommer
hvor de skal forlate det trygge og kjente, og de skal takle verden alene. For meg
er det da greit å vite hvordan de vil takle dette, og om de krever litt ekstra av eier.
Slik info får jeg ved en test.
For, testen foretaes av en for valpene ukjent person, på et for valpene ukjent sted og valpene er alene, uten støtte fra søsken, mor, de andre hundene i flokken eller meg som oppdretter. De må takle ting selv.
Selv om jeg ikke ofte har blitt spesielt overrasket over testresultatene, har det
vært tilfeller hvor jeg har måtte omrokkere på hvem som får hvem valp.
Nettopp pga testen og hva den har fortalt om valpen.
”Puppy Aptitude Test” (PAT) er i hovedsak en test som er blitt benyttet på
brukshundreaser, gjerne da for å finne individer best egnet til f.eks politiarbeide.
Jeg har utdannelse innen adferd og trening av hunder med adferdsproblemer,
i hovedsak hunder som ble betegnet som problemhunder. Jeg har også drevet
oppdrett av en brukshunderas, en rase som jeg ofte fikk inn til trening.
Etter at jeg ble kjent med valpetester og sett resultater av disse, tenker jeg at f
lere av de hundene jeg har hatt inne til trening ikke hadde kommet til meg,
dersom de fra start hadde kommet til rett eier.
En annen ting er at jeg kjenner det er mest rettferdig ovenfor både valpen jeg
selger og kjøper også. For selv om valpen her hjemme kanskje er super sosial
og imøtekommende, kan det være at den på egen pote ikke er like utadvendt og
vil trenge ekstra oppbacking av eier.
Eller hunden som krever at eieren jobber litt ekstra for at den skal synes trening er
kult og samarbeide godt med fører. En slik hund er ikke noe jeg personlig ville solgt
til en førstegangs hundeeier som vil ha en lettlært og artig hund å jobbe med.
Misforstå meg rett: Rasen ER artig å jobbe med, stort sett er de lettlærte også, men,
noen krever en eier som har en del erfaring og som er flink på å finne ut hvordan
man skal knekke koden for akkurat den hunden.
Det å eie hund skal være kos og moro (jada, det er mye jobb også), og får du "feil"
hund, kan mye være ødelagt. Å få en hund som ikke er hva du forventet deg,
det er ikke mye moro. Been there, done that.
Jeg vet også at jeg har et par på vennelista mi som har erfart det. Det er vondt å
sitte der med en hund som du føler du ikke er 100% med. Uansett hva du gjør og
ikke gjør så funker det ikke optimalt. Det kan frata folk lysten på å ha hund, og ofte
ender det med omplassering. Slikt ønsker jeg ikke at folk som kjøper valp fra meg
skal oppleve.
Derfor forsøker jeg å gi både valp og eier best mulig utgangspunkt. Derfor PAT.
Jeg vet det er "proffe" trenere der ute som ser på det som bare tull, og som
tenker at med rett trening så funker det, en test er bare waist of money.
Veeeeel ...
I don't think so.
Jeg vet også hva en slik holdning kan føre til. At disse "proffe" ikke lytter til
hva oppdrettere (som i hovedsak kjenner - bør i alle fall, rasene de avler opp) forteller,
både om rasen og om individet.
Så, til dere som lurte men ikke turte spørre, til dere som anser det som noe tullball osv, og til dere som har spurt: Her har dere svaret på hvorfor jeg velger å få PAT på valpekullene mine.
Why we do PAT
This is the sensors conclusion of the PAT from The Blacklist - litter.
This is Willow's PAT.
According to his owner, this is spot on. Willow is the kind of dog that we couldn't have sold to someone who "just" wanted a family dog who they could train on and off. He needed someone who could outsmart him. So, we were very glad when Siv Svendsen showed up and bought him.
This is Marty's PAT. He's Willows brother.
Even though him and Willow got the same score (3), Marty is a much easier dog to handle. He loves to please his owners and don't have that much of own opinions as his brother.
Why the difference?
1 litter, 2 parents, different puppies.
Why are there so big difference?
When planning a litter, we always look at the good sides of the parents,
and the not so goodsides with them.
We want to find a partner that can fulfill and complete what the other dog have and hasn’t.
On papers, the result looks fine. And we have a good idea of what the outcome will be.
But, DNA is a funny thing. You never know how much a pup will inherit from each
parents DNA.
So, in a litter you will se clear similarities between the pups.
You will see similarities to their parents.
One may look more as its mother, the other more like its father.
Some may look like a good (or not so good) mix of both parents.
Of corse we always hope they will look like a good mix of mother and father, that’s why we choose the dogs we do for each combination. But, as mentioned: DNA is a funny thing.
This also goes with the mentality (and health).
Some inherit more from the mother, some more from the father, some a good (or not so good) combination of them both.
And even if they are out of the same mother and lives up under the same circumstances and environment, they get their own personality.
So, siblings can be very much a like, and very much different.
And that’s why we take a PAT (Puppy Aptitude Test) when our pups are 7 weeks old.
Of corse we learn to see and know our puppies very well, but we don’t see them as an unknown (for the puppies) person will do when he/she has the puppies one on one in an unknown (for the puppies) environment.
Sometimes there are no surprises, other times you can be surprised of some puppies and how they react and acts when with unknown person in unknown environment.
And for us as a breeder, that is a very useful tool when we are choosing the homes for each puppy.
So, why is it like this, that puppies in the same litter sometimes comes out very different in all ways?
I read a simple but very good explanation on that.
I think it was so good that I «stole» it from the one who wrote it: Rob Thornhill.
«Let’s pretend …
Dam is a sack of corn.
Father is a sack of sunflowerseeds.
Pour each sack into a big tub and stir it up thoroughly.
Now you’re going to take a big scoop and dip out 8 portions and pour them out in separate piles.
Each portion represents a new puppy from the breeding.
Count the numbers of corn and sunflower kernels/seeds in each pile.
They will not be the same for any 2 piles.
That’s kinda how DNA works.»
(That's also why each pup comes out with a different COI)
CRD
CRD stands for choriorental dysplasia, and is a degree of CEA. It is important to remember that a dog does nor need to have CEA to have CRD. But a dog with CEA has CRD.
CRD is detected as there is a lack of pigment on the side of the pupil. A blood vessel occurs in the choroid (chorioidea). Although this disease is congenital (and also hereditary) it is not progressive. It does not develop, and thus will not deteriorate over time. The only change that can occur is between an eye-screening at 7 to 8 weeks, to a new pigment change where it is no longer possible to see the defects in the dog. A dog that is born with a not very serious degree of CRD will thus not have vision problems.
Dogs with CRD can be used in breeding if the degree is small, and the dog on a general basis is a good candidate for breeding. To prevent offsprings from getting the disease, a CRD-free partner is recommended.
A study shows that the prevalence of CRD in pups from normal x normal mating is 43%, normal x CRD mating is 53% and CRD x CRD matings is 83%
10 dogs from Sweden have been diagnosed with CRD, 5 from Finland and 2 from Norway. (2020)
CRD står for chorioretinal dysplasi, og er en grad av CEA. Det er viktig å huske at en hund ikke nødvendigvis må ha eller har CEA for å ha CRD. Men en hund med CEA har CRD.
CRD oppdages ettersom det mangler pigment på siden av pupillen. Det oppstår et blodkar i årehinnen (chorioidea). Selvom denne sykdommen er medfødt (og også arvelig) er den ei progressiv. Den utvikler seg ikke, og vil dermed ikke forverres med tiden. Den eneste forandringen som kan forekomme er mellom en øyelysing ved 7 til 8 uker, til en ny pigmentforandring der det ikke lenger er mulig å se defektene hos hunden. En hund som er født med en lite alvorlig grad av CRD vil dermed ikke får synsproblemer.
Hunder med CRD kan brukes i avl dersom graden er liten, og hunden på generelt basis er en god kandidat til avl. For å forhindre at avkom skal få sykdommen, anbefales en CRD-fri partner.
En studie viser at forekomsten av CRD hos valper etter foreldre hvor begge er fri for CRD er 43%, for valper etter foreldre hvor en er fri og den andre har CRD er på 53% og fra foreldre hvor begge har CRD er på 83%
Something I wrote a time ago
when the gossip was on it's worst
Ok ...
I know there's been talking a bit (understateement) about me breeding liver with liver.
Some are very very very against it.
Some say one should not breed liver with liver because they can have yellow puppies.
Well, there has been born yellow puppies but that was after black parents. The one yellow bitch had puppies, beeing mated to a black male. All her puppies became black.
The color yellow is due to MC1R witch is recessive E, wich is black. Sometimes, the MC1R mutates and the result is dogs that can be E/e wich means the dog is carrier of red and/or yellow, and then can give puppies with e/e, as in the case of the yellow Lancashire Heeler puppies.
Some say that the color is caused by the Dilute gene.
Well, if the yellow puppies was Dilute, they would not have been yellow with black noses, they would have had the color of champagne and certanly not would they have had black noses.
Well, then some says that liver in heelers are caused by the Dilute gene.
I can't talk for all liver heelers, but according to those who work with color genetics, the liver is not a result of Dilute. I had to check of course, I'm a curious person and I want to learn and know. So I tested some heelers that I know carries the gene for liver. Neither the liver ones nor the black ones that I have tested are carries of the Dilute-gene. (You know, two blacks can get liver puppies if they are carrying the Locus for liver/chocolate/brown. Cruella is out of two black parents. And as I have understood, it was quite a shock for her breeder when the first liver pup arrived. That because there's no indication of liver in her mothers pedigree.)
I know that some even says that liver/liver heelers will cause health issues.
Ok, they might, but not more than black/black or black/liver.
Or can you proove otherwise?
So ...
Next question I know some of you are dying to know: Did I breed only on color?
Ofcourse I did. All I was thinking was the color. Nothing else.
I didn't consider that I needed a short male for Cruellas a bit long body. (Which I found out wasn't so long after all. She just looks long because of how she sometimes carries her tail. She's 2,7cm longer in body than in height. Not bad at all :-) )
I didn't consider that I needed a male with excellent temper for Cruellas reservation against new people.
I didn't check and check and then checked and asked those who I consider close to experts when it comes to health statisticks in the breed.
I didn't care about the health either, I found a liver male and went for it.
And I didn't talk to breeders of other breeds that makes liver/liver combinations to learn and know what could go wrong, if it was wrong and so on.
If you belive so, well ... It's up to you.
Enough said, or written for now.
But I know some are wondering: Will you breed liver/liver again?
Yes, I might.
I probably will. (And I did it in 2021)
By the way: None of the puppies was born blind, deaf (other than selective), they don't have bad temper or any thing of those things some breeders have told me during the years that will be the result of liver/liver mating in heelers. (Yes, there are those who have said that liver heelers doesn't have as good temper as the black ones.)
At Kennel Lancasmiles in Sweden, there were born 4 puppies out of a liver/liver combination on the 9'th of April. They did the sam combination a year later.
It was also a liver/liver litter in Finland in 2019 or 2020.
And in Sweden, back in 2009, Bonnemin's Kennel had a liver/liver combination.
Hyponatremi - vet du hva det er?
På godt norsk kalles det Vannforgiftning.
Det er en akutt tilstand som kommer av at hunden har svelget for mye vann,
som gjør at hunden får en underbalanse av viktige stoffer som blant annet
elektrolytter, magnesium og kalsium. Dette kan fort utvikle seg til en alvorlig
situasjon som krevet veterinærbehandling. Merk at dette gjelder ferskvann,
og hunder kan også få det etter lek med vannslangen. Noe som skjedde med
Cruella i går.
Hun elsker jo å leke med vannet fra slangen, men i går ble det litt for mye av
det gode for henne. Jeg merket det da det var på tide med mat. Cruella stod
ikke først i køen som vanlig. Hun lå under tv-bordet.
Jeg satte meg på gulvet med henne, hun var glassaktig i øynene, peste,
smale øyne - klarte så vidt holde dem åpne. Sikkelet rant. Tannkjøttet var
meget blekt. Hun ville ikke ha godbit, reagerte ikke i det hele tatt.
Jeg hadde Apetitt Restore liggende, så jeg blandet ut dette og gav henne.
Da kom noe av fargen tilbake til tannkjøttet, men, valgte allikevel å sette oss i bilen for å dra til veterinær.
Ringte min faste veterinær, jeg vet ikke om de helt forstod alvoret, men de hadde fullt hus, så jeg ble anbefalt å dra til xx i steden. Vel, jeg ringer dit, snakker med jenta i resepsjonen, forklarer ALLE symptomer og at Cruella er vannforgiftet. Ja, det var jo å komme da, men, rakk vi ikke til kl 18 så ble det tillegg i prisen osv. Joda, jeg vet da det. Men, slikt tenker man gjerne ikke over når man ved siden av seg har en hund som er langt fra bra.
For å gjøre en lang historie kort, så gikk alt bra.
Cruella er i dag tilbake til seg selv - det ble hun vel i går kveld da hun fant det for godt å skjelle ut en schäfer som var på venterommet. Og i tillegg tyllet i seg en prøvepose med kjedelig tørrfor.
Jeg er ikke særlig imponert over veterinæren jeg var hos i går, og har sendt en mail til dem om dette.
Jeg skriver dette slik at dere med badeglade hunder nå i sommervarmen kan være obs på vannforgiftning hos hunden. Veterinæren jeg var hos i går er jeg nemlig usikker på om helt kjente til Hyponatremi, men, hun latet til å kjenne til Hypernatremi som er saltforgiftning og som kan oppstå ved at hunden svelger for mye sjøvann.
På siden til Valley Farm kan dere lese om Hyponatremi og Hypernatremi (link)
Ja, forresten, jeg er glad for at jeg har forsikring ;-)
To liver or not to liver
One time I read the following statement:
"A mating of Liver and Tan to Liver and Tan dilutes the colur and should this follow in another generation further dilution follows. This has produced solid yellow (golden) Lancashire Heelers.»
The yellow puppies born at Stardogs Kennel in Sweden were out of a black bitch and sired by a black father. This means that both the mother and father carried the yellow gene, so they were either BBee or Bbee. The yellow did not come from any dilution. Or any livers. And, if you look at the pictures of the puppies, you can clearly see that the noses are black. As far as I know, the offsprings after the one yellow bitch have not become yellow or given yellow puppies.
Are there born other yellow puppies than these?
And are there born any yellow puppies from liver parents?
A dog can only dilute if it carries the dilute-gene. It takes two recessives (dd) to lighten the colors. A dog that is Dd or DD will have normal (non-dilute) pigment.
I know that some describes the livers as dilute, well, liver is not technically dilution, but just a different color of eumelanin. So, if the parents doesn’t carrie the Dilute-gene or only ones carries it, the puppies will be nothing other than liver if breeding a liver with liver.
A liver can indeed give yellow puppies, but then, since the e-allele is recessive, the puppies must have two copies of the MC1R mutation to express solid yellow coat color. So from liver parents, the puppies must then be bbee.
"It's often claimed that dilute dogs are less healthy than those with normal pigment. This misconception has most likely come from the prevalence in some breeds of a condition known as Colour Dilution Alopecia (CDA). Similarly, some breeders claim that dilute dogs should never be bred together. There is no genetic basis for this claim. All eumelanin is affected on a dd dog. If the dog has any black or liver then it is not a true dilute. Dilute (dd) affects liver as well as black. A liver dilute is a light grey/brown and is generally known as an isabella or lilac."
(source doggenetics)
And this is science and not «hear-say» or speculations.
Remember that a black dog also can carry the Dilute-gene as well, and the e-allele as we already know, so, with bad luck, you can get yellow or blue puppies after a black/black breeding. It all depends on the genes ...
By the way: I have had 2 liver/liver combination and I have DNA-tested my liver offsprings. NONE of them carries the Dilute-gene, and none of them has the e-allel that gives yellow either. And offsprings of my first liver/liver combination have produced puppies. And guess what? None of them yellow, or with dilute-gene.
-lmlf-
Socialization
Take a good look at the picture below because it is definitely an important thing.
Because, and unfortunately, I have seen far too many people who believe that socialization means that the dog should have to play with other dogs and be petted by lots of people. Certain breeds were not created to be petted by everyone, but unfortunately many still live by that belief, and automatically label a dog that does not want anything to do with you as a stranger as an antisocial, fearful and even aggressive dog. They could not be more wrong.
It's so important to know the origin and characteristics of the breed you have and not try to make it into something else. Respect the breed.
